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	<title>Comments on: Expelled:  Science, like Medicine, Isn&#8217;t About Free Speech</title>
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	<link>http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/</link>
	<description>Politics, Religion and Pop-Culture</description>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-19117</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 18:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/#comment-19117</guid>
		<description>Hi &quot;another Frank&quot; (this may be a first, three Franks!)

No, I don&#039;t think evolution (or science in general) explains everything.  But my critique of science is less meaningful than yours, as you have some formal education in science and I do not.  My views are no more than lay opinions, and certainly would not be persuasive enough to convince a trained scientist.  But I&#039;ll cite a couple of my disagreements with science that I think you&#039;ll agree with.

First, as I think you noted, there seems to be an insistence on &quot;randomness&quot;, especially in text books.  But the idea that everything biological is a result of random processes seems to me to fly in the face of our scientific understanding of the universe.  We can shoot a missile to take out a satellite, launch a spacecraft to rendezvous with a comet, and design drugs to mute pain.  That speaks not of randomness, but of great organization.  Beyond that impression I have, there&#039;s another point I think is important:  because you can&#039;t see a pattern doesn&#039;t mean it isn&#039;t there.  What appears like random threads on a rug reveals itself to be beautiful needlepoint when turned right side up.

The second point of contention is with those who insist on being &quot;evangelical atheists&quot;.  Science is to the world what the old card catalog was to the library (in this digital age, I may need a new analogy!)  Science catalogs facts, but does not satisfy our need to know why those facts are there.  &quot;Why&quot; is a philosophical question, and they simply deny that anything philosophical or spiritual needs to be addressed.  But nevertheless, they do deal in philosophy.  The educated &quot;evangelical atheists&quot; like Carl Sagan choose what appears to me to be a philosophy that was dis-proven by the Big Bang:  Sagan said &quot;it always just was&quot;.  Wasn&#039;t that called &quot;steady state&quot; theory?  

The beauty of Genesis and the rest of the Bible is that it speaks of the relationship between God and man, something you can&#039;t measure on scales or a ruler.  Philosophy and religion are as important ... perhaps more so! ... than science is, not because they meet the artificial standard of proof some hold, but because they meet our human needs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi &#8220;another Frank&#8221; (this may be a first, three Franks!)</p>
<p>No, I don&#8217;t think evolution (or science in general) explains everything.  But my critique of science is less meaningful than yours, as you have some formal education in science and I do not.  My views are no more than lay opinions, and certainly would not be persuasive enough to convince a trained scientist.  But I&#8217;ll cite a couple of my disagreements with science that I think you&#8217;ll agree with.</p>
<p>First, as I think you noted, there seems to be an insistence on &#8220;randomness&#8221;, especially in text books.  But the idea that everything biological is a result of random processes seems to me to fly in the face of our scientific understanding of the universe.  We can shoot a missile to take out a satellite, launch a spacecraft to rendezvous with a comet, and design drugs to mute pain.  That speaks not of randomness, but of great organization.  Beyond that impression I have, there&#8217;s another point I think is important:  because you can&#8217;t see a pattern doesn&#8217;t mean it isn&#8217;t there.  What appears like random threads on a rug reveals itself to be beautiful needlepoint when turned right side up.</p>
<p>The second point of contention is with those who insist on being &#8220;evangelical atheists&#8221;.  Science is to the world what the old card catalog was to the library (in this digital age, I may need a new analogy!)  Science catalogs facts, but does not satisfy our need to know why those facts are there.  &#8220;Why&#8221; is a philosophical question, and they simply deny that anything philosophical or spiritual needs to be addressed.  But nevertheless, they do deal in philosophy.  The educated &#8220;evangelical atheists&#8221; like Carl Sagan choose what appears to me to be a philosophy that was dis-proven by the Big Bang:  Sagan said &#8220;it always just was&#8221;.  Wasn&#8217;t that called &#8220;steady state&#8221; theory?  </p>
<p>The beauty of Genesis and the rest of the Bible is that it speaks of the relationship between God and man, something you can&#8217;t measure on scales or a ruler.  Philosophy and religion are as important &#8230; perhaps more so! &#8230; than science is, not because they meet the artificial standard of proof some hold, but because they meet our human needs.</p>
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		<title>By: another Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-19116</link>
		<dc:creator>another Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/#comment-19116</guid>
		<description>Your point is clear.  Those who question parts of the evolutionary theory have to proceed through the proper &quot;scientific&quot; channels - journals and such to gain acceptance by &quot;experts.&quot;  I have not viewed the film, but I think this point is where the heart of the debate lies: the reading of a paper/idea questioning evolution with straight-faced, objectively-minded &quot;experts&quot; will never happen because the evolutionary scientific community believe that ID is religous in their minds...period.

Certainly Frank, you don&#039;t believe the current evolutionary theories explain everything...do you?  I always found it quite ironic that Spontaneous Generation is shown as disproved in current Biology textbooks by Louis Pasteur, but then a few chapters later, the Organic Soup Theory is on proud display for our 14 and 15 year olds to digest (nice pun).  All of this without debate; without thought; and without questioning from the high schoolers because of the strong-hold (maybe pride?) and fear of religion (maybe paranoia?) of the scientific community.

You&#039;ve compared your thoughts to the school of medicine a few times.  I certainly hope the community of &quot;experts&quot; does keep and open mind and welcome new ideas - even when their pride and paranoid states are rightfully affected.

I respect the way in which you present your thoughts; but I humbly disagree with most of them.  I am a former Biology teacher that believes in most evolutionary theories.  However, I know it has many holes, and I believe debating the mysteries of origins, without religion, is healthy in a classroom.  

I have done the hard work and earned my place in the classroom.  But the truth is, you cannot question Darwin dogma, period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your point is clear.  Those who question parts of the evolutionary theory have to proceed through the proper &#8220;scientific&#8221; channels &#8211; journals and such to gain acceptance by &#8220;experts.&#8221;  I have not viewed the film, but I think this point is where the heart of the debate lies: the reading of a paper/idea questioning evolution with straight-faced, objectively-minded &#8220;experts&#8221; will never happen because the evolutionary scientific community believe that ID is religous in their minds&#8230;period.</p>
<p>Certainly Frank, you don&#8217;t believe the current evolutionary theories explain everything&#8230;do you?  I always found it quite ironic that Spontaneous Generation is shown as disproved in current Biology textbooks by Louis Pasteur, but then a few chapters later, the Organic Soup Theory is on proud display for our 14 and 15 year olds to digest (nice pun).  All of this without debate; without thought; and without questioning from the high schoolers because of the strong-hold (maybe pride?) and fear of religion (maybe paranoia?) of the scientific community.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve compared your thoughts to the school of medicine a few times.  I certainly hope the community of &#8220;experts&#8221; does keep and open mind and welcome new ideas &#8211; even when their pride and paranoid states are rightfully affected.</p>
<p>I respect the way in which you present your thoughts; but I humbly disagree with most of them.  I am a former Biology teacher that believes in most evolutionary theories.  However, I know it has many holes, and I believe debating the mysteries of origins, without religion, is healthy in a classroom.  </p>
<p>I have done the hard work and earned my place in the classroom.  But the truth is, you cannot question Darwin dogma, period.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-18780</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/#comment-18780</guid>
		<description>Frank ... great name, by the way ... I understand your point.  But a science class isn&#039;t the place for debate about what is science, its a place where science is taught.

We would not allow a herbalist to take up valuable class time in a medical school course on heart surgery; while his theories about natural foods and plants might have value, the venue for them is not the class on surgery.  

Creationism and ID have to prove themselves BEFORE they are in the classroom.  Otherwise they are just opinions held by students and other non-scientists.

Christians approach this issue from a philosophical standpoint, and frame the issue as part of the culture wars.  Fair enough, but the arguments then are for a philosophy class.

Do the hard work, and earn your place in the classroom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank &#8230; great name, by the way &#8230; I understand your point.  But a science class isn&#8217;t the place for debate about what is science, its a place where science is taught.</p>
<p>We would not allow a herbalist to take up valuable class time in a medical school course on heart surgery; while his theories about natural foods and plants might have value, the venue for them is not the class on surgery.  </p>
<p>Creationism and ID have to prove themselves BEFORE they are in the classroom.  Otherwise they are just opinions held by students and other non-scientists.</p>
<p>Christians approach this issue from a philosophical standpoint, and frame the issue as part of the culture wars.  Fair enough, but the arguments then are for a philosophy class.</p>
<p>Do the hard work, and earn your place in the classroom.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-18761</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/#comment-18761</guid>
		<description>You are right, we do have the freedom to operate our own printing press or alcohol still that produces fuel to run our auto&#039;s, but the N.Y. Times does not have the right to run us out of business, or the Prohibition Act, a manipulation, prevented the farmers from making a good cash crop and producing fuel that burns much cleaner than petrol.  Same with this arguement Creationism has a right to be discussed in the classroom right along with Darwinism.  The ideas need to be vetted out rather than manipulated out, by employment termination or political pressure.  Remember, readers we all die, and then regardless of your rationalizations, wordsmithing, and PHd&#039;s, the truth rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right, we do have the freedom to operate our own printing press or alcohol still that produces fuel to run our auto&#8217;s, but the N.Y. Times does not have the right to run us out of business, or the Prohibition Act, a manipulation, prevented the farmers from making a good cash crop and producing fuel that burns much cleaner than petrol.  Same with this arguement Creationism has a right to be discussed in the classroom right along with Darwinism.  The ideas need to be vetted out rather than manipulated out, by employment termination or political pressure.  Remember, readers we all die, and then regardless of your rationalizations, wordsmithing, and PHd&#8217;s, the truth rules.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-18647</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 06:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/#comment-18647</guid>
		<description>Jason, your belief may be sincere, but you have not understood my point.  

In order to establish anything other than the dominant theory ... which is evolution, like it or not ... you have to propose your theory in peer reviewed journals and gain acceptance of the experts.  Until then, you don&#039;t have a voice in the matter, any more than a person who claims an herb cures cancer has a place in the clinic until he proves his assertion.

When I was a Creationist, in the 1970s, it was said that there were no transitional forms for a particular animal that was said to have come from a fish-like creature to be a land animal.  I have lived long enough to see science find the transitional forms, and today the Creationists don&#039;t feature the lack of transitional forms.  The past 50 years have revealed transitional forms in very expected ways.  

Faithful Christians, such as Francis Collins of the Human Genome Project, have written eloquently about why your concern is misplaced.  Find a copy of &quot;The Language of God&quot;, and read it.  To do otherwise is to ignore the real debate, which is not whether or not evolution is true, but whether or not Christians are dedicated to the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, your belief may be sincere, but you have not understood my point.  </p>
<p>In order to establish anything other than the dominant theory &#8230; which is evolution, like it or not &#8230; you have to propose your theory in peer reviewed journals and gain acceptance of the experts.  Until then, you don&#8217;t have a voice in the matter, any more than a person who claims an herb cures cancer has a place in the clinic until he proves his assertion.</p>
<p>When I was a Creationist, in the 1970s, it was said that there were no transitional forms for a particular animal that was said to have come from a fish-like creature to be a land animal.  I have lived long enough to see science find the transitional forms, and today the Creationists don&#8217;t feature the lack of transitional forms.  The past 50 years have revealed transitional forms in very expected ways.  </p>
<p>Faithful Christians, such as Francis Collins of the Human Genome Project, have written eloquently about why your concern is misplaced.  Find a copy of &#8220;The Language of God&#8221;, and read it.  To do otherwise is to ignore the real debate, which is not whether or not evolution is true, but whether or not Christians are dedicated to the truth.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Hollar</title>
		<link>http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/comment-page-1/#comment-18607</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Hollar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 14:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.frankhagan.com/blog/2007/12/05/expelled-science-like-medicine-isnt-about-free-speech/#comment-18607</guid>
		<description>Have you ever seen natural selection-- nope, neither have I-- neither can you extract it, examine it, test it, MANIPULATE IT (which is key to science) because you CANNOT identify it (ID). There is no formula to identify it (like for gravity or momentum and other like things), so therefore it is Unidentifiable (UD). No need to complicate it, as Darwin would suggest, because at the fundamentals evolution is flawed and is NOT a science by definition.  You may be able to predict behaviors and such but to attribute that to evolution is conjecture and not empirical at all.  Evolution is clearly an ideology-- and some have tried to pervert science to that point (through theories of evolution) as well. I admit that Intelligent Design, is basically, all about faith-- but SO IS EVOLUTION-- you evolution guys need to tie up a LOT of loose ends-- and have failed to do so-- but have pushed your ideas down peoples throats long enough. Leave your atheistic faith out of the classroom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you ever seen natural selection&#8211; nope, neither have I&#8211; neither can you extract it, examine it, test it, MANIPULATE IT (which is key to science) because you CANNOT identify it (ID). There is no formula to identify it (like for gravity or momentum and other like things), so therefore it is Unidentifiable (UD). No need to complicate it, as Darwin would suggest, because at the fundamentals evolution is flawed and is NOT a science by definition.  You may be able to predict behaviors and such but to attribute that to evolution is conjecture and not empirical at all.  Evolution is clearly an ideology&#8211; and some have tried to pervert science to that point (through theories of evolution) as well. I admit that Intelligent Design, is basically, all about faith&#8211; but SO IS EVOLUTION&#8211; you evolution guys need to tie up a LOT of loose ends&#8211; and have failed to do so&#8211; but have pushed your ideas down peoples throats long enough. Leave your atheistic faith out of the classroom.</p>
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